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Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment.

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Valiant
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Sep 18, 2007, 8:33 AM

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Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment.	Can't Post

Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment.
Lincoln-Douglas topic for September to October.

Go.

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

neocloud101
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Sep 18, 2007, 8:39 AM

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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

LD sucks. The value criteria thing is annoying.

Whatever.

Here's my Aff case:

The Death Penalty is an unjust method to use on fellow human beings. It is basically a sadistic and barbaric form of punishment used by people to get some pleasure out of their other fellow human beings' deaths. It is immoral and a life in prison is a lot less barbaric than the death row could ever be. The fact is, when a friend of ours is murdered, savagely killing the person who murdered that friend in front of many sadistic people is not going to bring that friend back to life.
And that's my first contention: If someone is killed, having their murderer killed is not going to bring the person back. So what's the point? Does watching a person get killed for your own redeeming feeling help anything? You're still going to mourn for that person who was murdered. You're still going to curse the name of the murderer under your breath all the time, as if him dying was not a suitable enough punishment. And if that's the case, killing a tried criminal is a horrible concept, especially when it does not resolve anything, which is usually the case.
My second contention is that it gives a bad message over to people. So the U.S. government orders the killing of a person who killed another person. So, an eye for an eye is okay, right? Wrong. It sends a message that killing is right, as long as it is done to the right person. Which is still an ignorant statement, as who judges who is the right person to kill?
My third contention is that the criminal's family also must suffer. At least they know that their family member is still alive, and they can visit them on some occasions. Imagine that your brother was recently put on the death row and they were soon about to execute him. You were going to lose your brother, in front of everyone. And the sad part is, everyone is okay with it. Some people even cheer. This is wrong and sadistic. Who are we to judge who can live and who cannot? Life in prison is much more humane.
My fourth contention is that an innocent person can be executed instead of the actual criminal, and if they are put to death, there is no way to bring them back. We must admit, our justice system is flawed. Some people can get by their crimes and frame others. So what if a person is convicted and put on the death row for a crime someone else has committed? What if it was later found out that that person was innocent? Then the person is dead and there's no way to redeem them. So someone has just been killed due to a mistake in court. Should we now execute the judge or jurors?
My fifth contention is that the death penalty is sadistic and barbaric. Whether you inject them, electrocute them, hang them, or use another fancy idea humans obtained to kill each other, the fact remains that people would really like to see others in a suffering state. There is a crowd of sadistic people in front the one being killed. What is the point of that? It makes us seem barbaric, how we watch and cheer for a murder as if it were a movie or a comedy act. Certainly our founders of America did not expect as though entertainment would erupt from killing another one of our own kind? It is a savage practice and will do nothing but increase anti-American behavior dealt by other countries in rivalry with the U.S.
My sixth contention is that the 8th Amendment to the Bill of Rights states that any crime will not result in a cruel and unusual punishment. Okay, so hanging Saddam Hussein in front of everyone and recording it to be viewed a million times on YouTube is neither cruel, nor unusual? It is wrong and horrible to the one who is being killed.
In conclusion, the death penalty should be banned because killing the person who killed your friend is not going to bring your friend back, the message of killing a person for killing someone is wrong, the criminal's family must suffer as well with a public display of killing the criminal, an innocent person may be killed with no way to redeem them after killing them, and the idea of a sentence of a public display of killing is sadistic and barbaric and will do nothing but lead to further acts of anti-American behavior by believing the U.S. to be full of savage, sadistic, and vengeful murderers. It is sad to believe that we as humans understand who needs to be killed or not.

"If you are a hero, you must be wearing clothes.
This is the new rule."
-- Jindrak

lo1
Senior Member

Sep 24, 2007, 9:51 AM

Post #3 of 107 (657 views)
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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

DP sucks. Penalties should be an example to the person serving them, not to other people. By killing a criminal, you are telling people "behave OR ELSE", but you're not giving the person a chance to redeem theirself, which is the purpose of the punishment.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

Valiant
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Sep 24, 2007, 11:09 AM

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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

People, people. I know you aren't all in debate so you don't know how to argue efficiently, so please try and link your argument to the resolution, in order to show why what you said matters at all.

For instance, if my contention is that the death penalty is unjust because family members of the recipient are harmed too, and they do not deserve it, then the link would be that a just society would not adapt the death penalty because giving people dues they don't deserve is unjust.

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

lo1
Senior Member

Sep 24, 2007, 11:14 AM

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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok.

A just society would give a chance for the criminal to redeem themself. Killing the person takes the person's life, thus not giving them a chance to redeem theirself.

Satisfied?

"Poo-tee-weet?"

Valiant
Enthusiast

Sep 24, 2007, 11:19 AM

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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

'course I am.

But by not killing the person, society also gives the murderer a chance to continuing murdering innocent people, which is something a just society would not do. The problem here is weighing, would you rather save the lives of countless people, or allow one guilty murderer to redeem himself?

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

lo1
Senior Member

Sep 25, 2007, 10:07 AM

Post #7 of 107 (572 views)
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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I'd say give him another chance. Afterall, one don't kill without a good reason. If they do it again... well, maybe the justice system fails. In my opinion, jails can be considered 'criminal factories'. I don't know how it works in other countries, but I do know prisioners are mistreated here and all the jails are crowded. Also, big... crime organizations (?) command crimes from inside the jail.

I don't think the solution is to kill or arrest. I think the solution varies for each case. I say the juri should consider what would be better for each case.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

Jindrak
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Sep 25, 2007, 11:08 AM

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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

one don't kill without a good reason.

Washington Sniper. Guy took him and a kid, a sniper rifle, and went around shooting people. Give me the good reason?

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

Valiant
Enthusiast

Sep 25, 2007, 11:28 AM

Post #9 of 107 (564 views)
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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is a fail situation if you're trying to uphold justice - and here's why.
Justice is defined as giving each person their fair dues.

Thus, justice does not necessitate allowing people the chance to redeem themselves.

However, if said just society allowed convicted murderers to redeem themselves, a just society would be gambling away the lives of its innocent citizens because the convicted killer may kill again.

This fulfills the definition of injustice, and as so, a just society would not adapt such a policy.

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Real1ty
Senior Member

Sep 26, 2007, 1:43 AM

Post #10 of 107 (552 views)
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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Being put to death for murdering someone else places more worth and weight on their life, which will discourage murderers.

"It worked, idk how. It probably wasn't healthy considering one time it bleed."
~coolgreencat

lo1
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Sep 26, 2007, 5:34 AM

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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

On the other hand, a just society ought to give a second chance to everyone. Also, the life of a criminal should not be considered less important than the life of others in this situation, as everyone is equal on a just society.

@Jindrak - Know that asian guy who killed those people at virginia tech (I think)? You and a lot of people probably think that the guy was a miserable guy who has a terrible family and had a terrible childhood. I used to think like this until I thought better about it. Imagined how many stupid people kept mocking him and making fun of him because he was a "nerd jap". It reached a point he couldn't take it anymore, so he shot them. This is just an example of a crime that seems to have no reason at all, but in the end, it does.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

Jindrak
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Sep 26, 2007, 12:57 PM

Post #12 of 107 (537 views)
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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It may have a reason, but that doesn't make it justified. If I'm broke, can I go mug someone? I had a reason, I had no money, so I went out and got someone. My girlfriend cheats on me, can I go kill her and the cheat-ee? Then after this, I lose a bet on a race-horse! It infuriates me, may I go shoot the ticket-taker? I mean, I HAD A REASON AFTER ALL.

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

Dr. Funk
Veteran

Sep 26, 2007, 12:59 PM

Post #13 of 107 (535 views)
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Re: [Jindrak] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

My girlfriend cheats on me, can I go kill her and the cheat-ee?

In some states.

TIME FOR SEX

Peach Pit
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Sep 26, 2007, 1:43 PM

Post #14 of 107 (532 views)
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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't know about this Lincoln Neg contention aff [Expletive Deleted], but I do know that I support the death penalty. I will finish this post later...

Being busy sucks...

EDIT: And christ Valiant, is that how your debate team talks? It took me like 10 minutes to work through that one post and swallow it fully.

bye.

(This post was edited by Peach Pit on Sep 26, 2007, 1:49 PM)

lo1
Senior Member

Sep 27, 2007, 12:36 AM

Post #15 of 107 (523 views)
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Re: [Jindrak] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

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It might justify, it might not, depends on your point of view. Plus, you asked for a reason.

Quote

Washington Sniper. Guy took him and a kid, a sniper rifle, and went around shooting people. Give me the good reason?

Anyways, imo, I wouldn't say kill them, but beat the crap out of them maybe.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

Valiant
Enthusiast

Sep 27, 2007, 6:57 AM

Post #16 of 107 (520 views)
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Re: [Peach Pit] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fuck, dude. Imagine someone taking what I said, making it ten times more complex, adding some laws and theories of some Greek philosophers that nobody gives a shit about, and saying it at four hundred words a minute.

Bam. There's our varsity team.

Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Raziel The Soul Reaver
Senior Member

Sep 29, 2007, 12:36 PM

Post #17 of 107 (492 views)
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Re: [Valiant] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

AN EYE FOR AN EYE SHOULD BE THE PUNISHMENT,this is where i stand,lol

"For every animal you don't eat, i'm going to eat three"
Quote: Maddox

Jindrak
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Sep 29, 2007, 3:29 PM

Post #18 of 107 (486 views)
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Re: [Raziel The Soul Reaver] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

nadkicker69
Veteran / Moderator

Oct 19, 2007, 3:58 AM

Post #19 of 107 (452 views)
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Re: [To Everybody] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm for the death penalty. However, it should be a lasting punishment and not any of those sissy techniques such as the Firing Squad or the Electric Chair.

Now I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty", as people DO make mistakes. That's what a one month waiting period is for - enough time to see if the "Guilty" is really guilty. After all, fair's fair.

As for punishments, a good start would be some equivelant of the Burning At the Stake or something lasting to ensure that the executionee would meet an end as violent as his crime. Make it public for everybody to see from children to adults - it's a great deterrent, and TURN THAT VOLUME UP!

Now, let's go through some people's posts, shall we?

"If someone is killed, having their murderer killed is not going to bring the person back. So what's the point?"
The point is that he/she won't be alive to do it again. Yeah, I'll be feeling the loss of my friend/family no longer being with me, but I'll be content that El Murderer will be paying for it in the same fashion.

"My fifth contention is that the death penalty is sadistic and barbaric. Whether you inject them, electrocute them, hang them, or use another fancy idea humans obtained to kill each other, the fact remains that people would really like to see others in a suffering state. There is a crowd of sadistic people in front the one being killed. What is the point of that? It makes us seem barbaric, how we watch and cheer for a murder as if it were a movie or a comedy act. Certainly our founders of America did not expect as though entertainment would erupt from killing another one of our own kind?"
There was once an early American bloodbath called the Salem Witch Hunt. Not only was it a very painful event, but it was also damn near celebrated whenever a 'witch' was caught and burnt, drowned, or broken to pieces in a wheel (Breaking on the Wheel). I doubt our founding fathers really gave a s**t about what was humane.

"My sixth contention is that the 8th Amendment to the Bill of Rights states that any crime will not result in a cruel and unusual punishment. Okay, so hanging Saddam Hussein in front of everyone and recording it to be viewed a million times on YouTube is neither cruel, nor unusual? It is wrong and horrible to the one who is being killed.
One, that was in Iraq, not the states. Two, that's why we have police checking for video cameras and such so people will NOT film the executions and place them on MySpace in the States. Three, the 8th Amendment doesn't apply to citizens of the Middle East. Dead point.

"I would have people tortured and what not for murder and other various crimes (of course not killing them in the process). In addition, they would have to pay huge fines to the person's family or whatever."
I'm pretty damn sure that torture is going to bring back the dead person where killing will not...

"Of course it is easier until you're in the victim's shoes. That shows the bias and emotion that screws up a perfectly logical punishment. Life in prison is more than enough for that. That's pretty torturous as well. You think death is scary? Try a hopeless, pessimistic life in prison"
Citizens of the United States! Send in your tax dollars to house and feed those who killed your own! Screw that. Why pay to ensure that someone suffers for years and years? That's money better spent on say... More fuel and wood for the burning stakes.

"You guys are forgetting the whole reason of prison. It is a punishment to reform people and show them that what they did was wrong. And if they're the people who cannot learn, they're that maniacal, they take life in prison, and/or solitary confinement. "
Prison is a place for reform. Fair enough. But when you're getting life in prison, you're dead anyway. Quit wasting our money on dead men walking and clear the space for those that might learn a lesson. AND FUEL THOSE FLAMES, DAMMIT!

"And anyway, my main thing against the Death Penalty is that yes, we don't kill everyone, it's not our only form of punishment, but who are we, as human beings, able to see who deserves death or not? "
Who are we to see them fit to live, knowing that if they get away, they'll kill more, nevermind that fact that it's not his place?

"@Jindrak - Know that asian guy who killed those people at virginia tech (I think)? You and a lot of people probably think that the guy was a miserable guy who has a terrible family and had a terrible childhood. I used to think like this until I thought better about it. Imagined how many stupid people kept mocking him and making fun of him because he was a "nerd jap". It reached a point he couldn't take it anymore, so he shot them. This is just an example of a crime that seems to have no reason at all, but in the end, it does. "
Holy crap, you're justifying someone shooting people 'cause they made fun of him? Boo hoo frickin' hoo and gimme a poker to stoke the fires.

For those who say "THE DEATH PENALTY IS WRONG!", tell it to the mother of the dead kid.

Thank you for your time! Have a nice day! ^^

=
I am the Jester. I make the unreal real.

lo1
Senior Member

Oct 19, 2007, 9:33 AM

Post #20 of 107 (447 views)
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Re: [nadkicker69] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

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The point is that he/she won't be alive to do it again. Yeah, I'll be feeling the loss of my friend/family no longer being with me, but I'll be content that El Murderer will be paying for it in the same fashion.

You cannot prove the person would kill again if kept alive.

Quote

There was once an early American bloodbath called the Salem Witch Hunt. Not only was it a very painful event, but it was also damn near celebrated whenever a 'witch' was caught and burnt, drowned, or broken to pieces in a wheel (Breaking on the Wheel). I doubt our founding fathers really gave a s**t about what was humane.

Couldn't agree more. Plus, the criteria to decide whether the woman was a witch was ridiculous.

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One, that was in Iraq, not the states.

And Bush obviously had no power upon that trial. Please.

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I'm pretty damn sure that torture is going to bring back the dead person where killing will not...

True. But then again, following this logic we should do nothing about the murderers, because there's nothing we can do to bring the person back to life.

Quote

Prison is a place for reform. Fair enough. But when you're getting life in prison, you're dead anyway. Quit wasting our money on dead men walking and clear the space for those that might learn a lesson. AND FUEL THOSE FLAMES, DAMMIT!

I don't think it's just that easy. Not easy as "who gives a damn, the guy is practically dead anyways, just kill him". No. He'll have a loooooooong time to think about the crap he did and maybe get fixed on uh... probation(??)

Quote

Who are we to see them fit to live, knowing that if they get away, they'll kill more, nevermind that fact that it's not his place?

Stop generalizing. For example, if someone kills your father, and you kill the person who did it; I don't think you'd kill again.

Quote

Holy crap, you're justifying someone shooting people 'cause they made fun of him? Boo hoo frickin' hoo and gimme a poker to stoke the fires.

If you've never been through it, you can't say. Try, just try to imagine how it is to be bulied by your entire grade, and living alone in a [Expletive Deleted]ing foreign country with no friends or family, studing your ass out. For [Expletive Deleted]'s sake it's not the same thing as someone calling you an idiot because your hat doesn't match your shoes.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

(This post was edited by nadkicker69 on Oct 19, 2007, 10:54 PM)

nadkicker69
Veteran / Moderator

Oct 19, 2007, 10:54 PM

Post #21 of 107 (434 views)
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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

You cannot prove the person would kill again if kept alive.
Gotta love the circular logic that spins in a neverending spiral. No, we can't prove it either way.

True. But then again, following this logic we should do nothing about the murderers, because there's nothing we can do to bring the person back to life.
So you're saying that we should let them go as they please 'cause we can't do anything about the result of the individual's actions?

I don't think it's just that easy. Not easy as "who gives a damn, the guy is practically dead anyways, just kill him". No. He'll have a loooooooong time to think about the crap he did and maybe get fixed on uh... probation(??)
You ARE aware that there are people that'll simply not learn their lesson or care to, right? Probation is just Round 2 for them. A life sentence just gives said people time to think of a way to escape.

Stop generalizing. For example, if someone kills your father, and you kill the person who did it; I don't think you'd kill again.
You know what kind of people we're talking about. Stop generalizing to make a point.

If you've never been through it, you can't say. Try, just try to imagine how it is to be bulied by your entire grade, and living alone in a [Expletive Deleted]ing foreign country with no friends or family, studing your ass out. For [Expletive Deleted]'s sake it's not the same thing as someone calling you an idiot because your hat doesn't match your shoes.
I'm a black skinned Japanese midget that'll never pass for anyone over the age of 10 years old and will never be taller than anyone over the age of 8. All my life I've been screwed with by kids and adults being called things like "Freak", "Nigger", "Jap" by both sides of my own race (Aifrican and Japanese as well as American - funny, the Arabs who hate both sides of what I am didn't mess with me) and being treated like a child and will probably will be until I turn 30 or something, provided I live that long. However that is NOT justification to go on killing sprees. For the past 3 years, I've been living in foreign countries, but location doesn't mean squat and we both know that - anyone can make friends and enemies anywhere and anyone can learn a language if they really want to. As you say, if you've never been through it, you can't say, either.

And don't dance around the profanity filter - that's what we have it for.

=
I am the Jester. I make the unreal real.

(This post was edited by nadkicker69 on Oct 19, 2007, 10:56 PM)

lo1
Senior Member

Oct 22, 2007, 4:41 AM

Post #22 of 107 (411 views)
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Re: [nadkicker69] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

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So you're saying that we should let them go as they please 'cause we can't do anything about the result of the individual's actions?

That's just what I said.

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You ARE aware that there are people that'll simply not learn their lesson or care to, right?

You ARE aware that it depends on the individual whether he'll takes his chance to improve and live his life under probation outside jail or rotting inside it. Mmm lemme think what I'd choose...

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You know what kind of people we're talking about. Stop generalizing to make a point.

If we are discussing something as serious as this, we can't talk about only one side of the equation.

Quote

I'm a black skinned Japanese midget that'll never pass for anyone over the age of 10 years old and will never be taller than anyone over the age of 8. All my life I've been screwed with by kids and adults being called things like "Freak", "Nigger", "Jap" by both sides of my own race (Aifrican and Japanese as well as American - funny, the Arabs who hate both sides of what I am didn't mess with me) and being treated like a child and will probably will be until I turn 30 or something, provided I live that long. However that is NOT justification to go on killing sprees. For the past 3 years, I've been living in foreign countries, but location doesn't mean squat and we both know that - anyone can make friends and enemies anywhere and anyone can learn a language if they really want to. As you say, if you've never been through it, you can't say, either.

You do realise that

1 - It strictly depends on the person's head;
2 - You probably have people who love you around you;
3 - Series of other external factors. Childhood, family, friends, place, people, etc etc etc. Not to mention psychological problems, if any. You're obviously different from the guy.

"Poo-tee-weet?"

nadkicker69
Veteran / Moderator

Oct 22, 2007, 8:34 PM

Post #23 of 107 (405 views)
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Re: [lo1] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

So you're saying that we should let them go as they please 'cause we can't do anything about the result of the individual's actions?
That's just what I said.
I wanna get this straight - we're letting a murderer go 'cause we can't do anything about the result of it? You're pro murder?

You ARE aware that it depends on the individual whether he'll takes his chance to improve and live his life under probation outside jail or rotting inside it. Mmm lemme think what I'd choose...
Are you aware that quite a few murders result in no parole?

If we are discussing something as serious as this, we can't talk about only one side of the equation.
If it's that serious to you, I'll look into every part of the equation, then.

You do realize that

1 - It strictly depends on the person's head I'm aware of that;
2 - You probably have people who love you around you Has it ever occurred to you that this applies to everybody? It just requires that the individual take a look.;
3 - Series of other external factors. Childhood, family, friends, place, people, etc etc etc. Not to mention psychological problems, if any. You're obviously different from the guy Does that mean that the individual has to turn his life into a real life version of Quake? There's a thing called "Getting Help". Being picked on and having a [Expletive Deleted]ty childhood doesn't mean that you have to try to make another Columbine Shootout. If that were the case, I'd be picking people off with tiny little guns..

I apologize if I have managed to butcher the formatting of any of your quotes, as I'm not a master of the art of Copy and Paste.

=
I am the Jester. I make the unreal real.

TazG
Veteran / Moderator

Oct 23, 2007, 2:27 AM

Post #24 of 107 (402 views)
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Re: [nadkicker69] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

What the crap is going on in this thread?

a brilliant Japanese cryptographer/physicist
developed binary code travelling the speed of intellectual property
in Ireland.

nadkicker69
Veteran / Moderator

Oct 23, 2007, 3:58 AM

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Re: [TazG] Resolved: A just society ought not use the death penalty as a form of punishment. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

What the crap is going on in this thread?

An arguement, apparently.

=
I am the Jester. I make the unreal real.

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